Lagunas Speak up!

[Andrew]

Laguna-style ketch rig

The Laguna is a schooner.

[UncleHyena]

Laguna-style ketch rig

The Laguna is a schooner.

Hmmm. You may be right.

Bolger called a rig with two identical sails a "periauger", but I have heard objections to that.

The Sea Pear, which has two identical sails is described as a ketch (though it definitely was a ketch, by anyone's definition, back in the days when it was sold with lug sails). Likewise the Core Sound 17 and the Core Sound 20 (The Core Sounds may have forward masts that are slightly taller than the after masts, but the sails are identical. I think.).

Wikipedia says that all that is needed to define a schooner is fore and aft sails, and a fore mast that is no taller then the after mast.

There is a rumor that Mike Monies deliberately added a foot to the after mast of the Laguna Dos to make it CLEAR that it was a schooner.

On Laguna Tres we decided that we had a fore mast and a mizzen mast, and let the larger issue slide.

Paul

[Andrew_Linn]

I call it a Double Lugger. The Frenchies had multi-luggers back in the day. Used 'em fer coastal work and smuggling. If you want a real downer of a read that makes reference to French luggers, check out Jan Needle's books.
http://www.janneedle.com/nautical.php

[Kevin]

Laguna-style ketch rig

The Laguna is a schooner.

Hmmm. You may be right.

Bolger called a rig with two identical sails a "periauger", but I have heard objections to that.

The Sea Pear, which has two identical sails is described as a ketch (though it definitely was a ketch, by anyone's definition, back in the days when it was sold with lug sails). Likewise the Core Sound 17 and the Core Sound 20 (The Core Sounds may have forward masts that are slightly taller than the after masts, but the sails are identical. I think.).

Wikipedia says that all that is needed to define a schooner is fore and aft sails, and a fore mast that is no taller then the after mast.

There is a rumor that Mike Monies deliberately added a foot to the after mast of the Laguna Dos to make it CLEAR that it was a schooner.

On Laguna Tres we decided that we had a fore mast and a mizzen mast, and let the larger issue slide.

Paul

In The Compleat Cruiser, L Francis Herreshoff says that "there's no such thing as a cat schooner", and that a boat with "two masts of about the same height and no headsail is sometimes called a periauger". He's ok with the term "cat yawl", but not with a cat schooner, according to him a schooner has a headsail by definition. Personally, I think that's dated. I called my rig (two identical mainsails) a cat schooner before I had the jibs, and just a schooner now, and I think most people who know what a schooner is understand me.

I call the two mains the fore main and the aft main, since that seems clearer to me than mizzen, and I'm usually in a hurry when I mention one of them and really want the correct sheet let go right now, if you don't mind

Kevin

[duckworks]

If you Google 'Periauger', you will get a bunch of info about a typical early american workboat:

Periauger is a generic term for a split dugout cypress log with a plank keel inserted in the center, sometimes with an upper strake added to increase freeboard.

Nowhere did I find the term periauger in reference to a type of rig, though I had heard the term used for a boat with two identical sails fore and aft.

To make things worse, the boat that is being sold as a periauger does not have both sails the same:



Now, if you really want to get confused, check this page:
http://nshiny.com/pirates/shipguide.html
Pay particular attention to what they call a "ketch".

[UncleHyena]

Chuck, are you citing a video game as an authoritative source? Consider me boggled. I have had about the same luck as you when researching "periauger" online, but I am certain that Bolger refers to a rig consisting of two identical fore and aft sails as a periauger in "103 Small Boat Rigs."

Maybe the best advice to would be builders is to decide whether you want a schooner or a ketch, add six inches to the appropriate mast, and name things accordingly.

Paul

[duckworks]

Maybe the best advice to would be builders is to decide whether you want a schooner or a ketch, add six inches to the appropriate mast, and name things accordingly.

And since the masts are interchangeable, you could switch back and forth from ketch to schooner.

[Andrew_Linn]

I'm still going for Double Lugger. Why? 'Cuz every boat you have mentioned that has the same sized sails has the sails behind the masts - Lagunas have balanced lug sails. That's why they don't have headsails, too.

<Heretical rant>
And Hershoff doesn't get a voice. Dude couldn't draw a boat that didn't require a mold at ever frame. in my opinion, he was the worst kind of boat designer - an artist who made excessively complicated shapes simply because he could. People went for 'em 'cuz we like the lines - they are pleasing to our eyes. It doesn't mean his boats were better, just a lot harder to build. In my opinion, Hershoff did a whole lot to PREVENT home builders. Because his boats looked so 'right' neophytes who saw them thought they were right, but even an experienced carpenter doesn't have the skills, tools, and materials required to build something like the Hersoff 12.5. He actually KEPT people off the water.

Dude made purty boats, but he's not someone I will cite or use as a reference.
</Heretical rant>

[duckworks]

He actually KEPT people off the water.... Dude made purty boats, but he's not someone I will cite or use as a reference.

Harsh, Andrew, but you make good points. Jim Michalak is our hero.

Chuck

[Andrew_Linn]

Harsh, Andrew, but you make good points. Jim Michalak is our hero.

I can see his guidance counselor now: So, Jim, what do you want to be when you grow up? I want to be a hero to thumb-handed, talentless, unskilled wood-butchers like Andrew Linn.
His mom must be so proud.

[duckworks]

thumb-handed, talentless, unskilled wood-butchers like Andrew Linn.

and Chuck Leinweber...

[txsailor37]

You guys crack me up !!!!!!!

Thanks!

[UncleHyena]

thumb-handed, talentless, unskilled wood-butchers like Andrew Linn.

and Chuck Leinweber...

Hmmm. Three quotations come to mind; I can't find the exact text of the first one, and will have to wing it.

"First, make her beautiful. A man will forgive nearly any fault in a boat he believes to be beautiful, and will forgive very little in a boat he believes to be ugly." --L. Francis Herreshoff

"A man does not insist on physical beauty in a woman who builds up his morale. After a while he realizes that she is beautiful--he just hadn’t noticed it at first." -- Robert A. Heinlein in the character of Lazarus Long, "Time Enough for Love"

"I wanted photographic documentation of the fact that it really is possible for one of these little plywood boxes to be beautiful, because of course ANY sailboat running wing-and-wing is beautiful; there is no alternative." --Paul Haynie, speaking of Jason Nabor's PDR "Sea Flea", "Shootout at Reynold's Creek Park", Duckworks, 2005

Paul

[Andrew_Linn]

You've proven my point exactly, Paul: Hershoff was obsessed with visual beauty - his quote even admits that people will be perfectly happy with a crappy boat so long as it looks pretty.

PDRs, on the otherhand, have a functional beauty. Sadly, the only way to appreciate functional beauty is to first get over prejudice.

Huh, I never knew I had such feelings against Hershoff and all he stood for until this thread.

[mmonies]

Of course Andrew it is possible to have both functional beauty AND visual beauty, along with good workmanship. I think you and I agree that Laguna Dos is all three!

I am admittedly prejudiced.

Jackie Monies